Lord of the Flies Chapter 8
Select one or more of the questions below to comment upon. (freely borrowed from http://pacek.tripod.com/WHSpage/lordquest.htm)
1. Throughout the novel, there has been conflict between Jack and Piggy. What do you think is the cause of this conflict? Why is it significant that Piggy, for the first time, helps to gather firewood only after Jack has broken from the group? Why does Piggy feel liberated?
2.Even though Jack enumerates Ralph' s faults, none of the boys is willing to oust Ralph as chief. What explanation can you offer for this?
3. Comment on your reaction to Simon's encounters with the Lord of the Flies. Do you think that Simon is hallucinating because of the heat? Remember that Simon is only a young boy, about eleven or twelve. Does such a young person usually have the kind of understanding and insight that Simon seems to possess? Do you think the Lord of the Flies' assessment of the other boys' feelings about Simon is accurate? Is there any evidence to support this? Do you think the Lord of the Flies' warning that the others will "do" Simon if he tries to interfere is realistic?
Number 2:
ReplyDeleteEven though Jack leaves the group people still look up to Ralph because Ralph is a better leader than jack. Ralph has the "common sense" factor, whereas Jack has the spur of the moment attitude. Ralph plans ahead and gets things that need to be done done, even though it might not be the funnest thing to do at the time. Jack on the other hand is so obsessed with killing a single pig that is all he can think about and all he ever will do. Jack doesn't take anything else as serious as hunting. Yes Jack can get the group willing to hunt, but is that all they need to survive? Ralph is the better leader and they boys know it.
Yet isn't there something to be said for the spur-of-the-moment type of leader? Leadership does involve an element of intuition, yes?
DeletePiggy and Jack seem to butt heads because they are polar opposites in their physique and methodology. Jack is a tall and fit and is the immediate action among the boys, whereas Piggy is the chubby long term logistical thinker. Right from the get go, Piggy does what he believes will be beneficial for the whole community at a steady and relaxed pace. Jack on the other hand, seems to just want to stab something. I think Jack needs some serious riddlin where as Piggy might need a stimulant. Piggy, like Simon, has a personality and insight that goes beyond average, unlike Jack, who behaves tyrannically, with a shallow demeanor and has a bit of an egotist within him. These differences have caused a build up and are what caused the problem between Piggy and Jack.
ReplyDeletePiggy helping to build a fire shows that, with the liquidation of Jack as a leader, he feels freed of the external evil which keeps his assistance at bay. With Jack no longer there to put him down or tell him to shut up, his spirits have been lifted as if he has gained liberty within the island government. With the growing friendship of Ralph, his motivation to help has probably increased as well.
p.s. I can not help but relate everything to lost within this. Some of the characters are doing literally the same things as their counter parts in the book. Jack Shepherd and Sawyer's struggle is much the same as Ralph's and Merridew's, Piggy is almost the same concept as Hurley, he even plays the same role and does the same things as him, the serpentine Beastie/Lord of The Flies is the Smoke Monster who causes external problems due to internal problems which then translates to more internal problems and runs on a cycle. The island of mysteries is still a mysterious island, there were plane crashes in both, pigs inhabited both, many other similarities that i cant help but notice.
In one early episode of "Lost," I remember seeing Sawyer with a copy of "Lord of the Flies" -- I think. Regardless, the book definitely inspired in whole or in part major pieces of that show's mythology, including the smoke monsters, the division into warring tribes, and the general creepy vibe of the setting.
Delete#3: I found the Lord of the Flies to be like the devil. Spawned of evil and death, it condescends Simon, taunting him, and tries to convince him to do things he doesn't think he should do. I like to think that Simon, who as you said communes with nature, is imagining nature's antithesis within the Lord of the Flies. Simon is a curious kid, and curiosity promotes insight, thus making him a very insightful individual. The Lord of the Flies says that the others think he's batty, naming Ralph, Piggy, and Jack. They probably do, considering he has always acted strangely and awkward around them. When he says that the others will 'do' Simon, that very well might happen, since Jack and his tribe are acting crazy especially when they pretend to kill a pig.
ReplyDeleteIf Simon is our religious mystic, then he's functioning in a highly symbolic way here. Like Christ going off into the desert to be tempted by Satan, Simon retreats by himself, communicates with a mystical evil, and must do his best to avoid the temptations that arise.
DeleteWhen Jack goes up in front of the group and claims Ralph is a coward and needs to be replaced no one votes for a change.I think this is because all the boys are confused about the situation and don’t know which side of the story to believe.Some of the boys know they don’t want Jack as a leader because he is to crazy, but they are afraid to say anyone else because it might make him burst into a fit of rage. I think if the boys opted to choose another leader they would not know who to pick. They know Jack is a nut who has a one track mind of killing pigs,Ralph is having a hard time thinking for himself and Piggy posses the ideas of a leader but not the physical characteristics. The boys don’t know who else would fit the job description because they all don’t know what to do themselves; so obviously it should not be one of them.
ReplyDeleteAdditiionally, Jack is the "fun" leader, who promises pigs and prosperity for all, while all Ralph can offer is the prospect of dreary work (however necessary it may be).
Delete1) Jack and Piggy seem to have their differences with each other because they look at the situation that they are in differently. Piggy is the quiet, conscientious, logical thinker, while Jack is the aggressive, wild one. Piggy prefers to sit and think quietly about what is best for the group and how to handle being stranded on the island. Jack is the loud kid who has to speak his ideas louder than anyone else's even if they really don't make sense. While Piggy finds ways to organize meetings, Jack is yelling about killing pigs and unfortunately, it is Jack who a lot of the younger kids listen to because Piggy isn't able to voice his thoughts.
ReplyDeletePiggy begins helping with the firewood for the same reason that he feels so liberated once Jack leaves the group. For once he is able to participate without fear of being made fun of. Piggy can participate in physical activities without being called fat and pushed around by Jack. With a bit of new self confidence, Piggy feels comfortable taking leadership now that Jack has left.
Piggy is the manifestation of logos (logic), Jack represents pathos (or pure emotion), and Ralph is ethos (authority, conferred both by the conch AND his natural leadership abilities).
Delete#1 I think the cause of the conflict between Jack and Piggy is jealousy. Jack is jealous of the ideas Piggy comes up with and that his relationship with Ralph is better. Also because Piggy made a big contribution to the group of boys on the island, the fire. It took Jack awhile before he killed the pig, which was his main contribution. Piggy is jealous of Jack for obvious reasons, his strength, athletecism, and confidence. Jack has the confidence to at least try and control the group of boys. Piggy would rather stand off to the side and let someone else speak for him, which is basically what he's been doing for the majority of the book through Ralph. It's significant when Piggy picks up the firewood because it gives him that confidence that he could do something physically helpful, like Jack. He feels liberated because he now has the opportunity to say what he needs to without Jack shutting him down all the time, and maybe he can kind of step up more as Ralph's advisor.
ReplyDeleteJack would probably never admit to it, but jealousy could be part of the reason he dislikes Piggy. Good post, Danielle.
Delete1) There is a conflict between Jack and Piggy because they are very different people. Jack is a very loud and agressive and spontaneous while Piggy is very passive and sits back and thinks about everything. Jack would be the one to do something without thinking and telling the group what to do while Piggy would be the one to say "maybe we shouldn't do that." This would cause a butting of heads between the two.
ReplyDeleteIt is significant that Piggy helps because now he can finally feel like he is helping without getting ridiculed. Piggy can be comfortable saying his ideas and doing things to help without getting in confrontations with Jack. It's like the whole group is now more peaceful because the blunt, loud Jack is no longer there to create civil unrest. Piggy can now feel important to the group and not feel like he is getting bullied and his ideas aren't put on the back burner.
Of course, when the "blunt, loud" Jack leaves, he eventually takes many (most?) of the other boys with him, leaving Piggy with very few people to help. Good post, Connor.
Delete1.) Piggy has been bullied by Jack since day one on the island. They always disagree because of their polar opposite personalities. The fire of conflict is also fed by Jack's bad-mouthing of Piggy's physical appearance.
ReplyDeletePiggy is a logical, thinking kind of guy. He looks at situations from a different perspective than the others (through those specs!). Jack is a rash, bloodthirsty antagonist, who is hungry for power and doesn't like the idea of doing things for the benefit of the entire group (he likes to hunt so he can spill blood, not for sustenance).
Once Jack leaves, Piggy remains with Ralph and breathes a sigh of relief. The verbal (and sometimes physical) attacks on him will now stop, at least for the moment. However, many of the boys follow Jack to form a hunting tribe, and there are not many people left to do work, so Piggy has to help out. Piggy doesn't seem mind this too much because he feels a sense of camaraderie with Ralph now, and knows he's safe from Jack's attacks.
Piggy's flaw has been his disinclination to work. He makes a good attempt to change in this chapter, although it doesn't last long.
DeleteI think the boys don't oust Ralph as their chief because he makes them feel secure. He isn't an extremist, like Jack, and he is the closest thing to an adult they have on the island. He enforces the rules, he tells them what needs to be done, and he is the only one who attempts order. The majority of the boys have a hard time finding trust in Jack, who is all about hunting and a more savage way of life. Ralph as their leader is the closest thing they have to their old lives, and might even be looked upon as a parent to some of the littluns.
ReplyDeleteThe book certainly makes one think about the high price of leadership. Ralph has the weight of the world on his shoulders, with nobody to confide in or turn to.
DeleteThe best virtual slots - Lucky Club Live
ReplyDeleteLooking for an online casino with great slots? Check out 카지노사이트luckclub the list of top virtual slots from top casino sites for free in 2021. No registration required.List of Top-Rated Casinos · The Best Virtual Slots